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jk



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OK, It has arrived.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/9956913841/nikon-announces-z9-professional-mirrorless-camera

https://www.nikon.co.uk/en_GB/products/category_pages/digital_cameras/mirrorless/overview.page

46MP.
So basically an upgrade to the Z7 and D850 with more professional features and better video if you want it.

jk



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In addition to the camera there are two new lenses  24-120mm f4 and 100-400mm f4.5-5.6.
https://www.dpreview.com/news/6063825367/nikon-announces-nikkor-z-24-120mm-f4-s-for-z-mount-mirrorless-cameras
https://www.dpreview.com/news/6354738892/nikon-announces-nikkor-z-100-400mm-f4-5-5-6-vr-s-telephoto-zoom


There is also a smaller FTZii adapter.
https://www.dpreview.com/news/8691092252/nikon-announces-new-ftz-ii-a-smaller-version-of-its-f-mount-to-z-adapter

Iain



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Can’t say it excites me. No weight saving as such. I think if I had the money it would be a D6 for me.

Eric



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It was bound to happen once Canon and Sony released their versions.
I doubt there will be much difference in performance with the three big players in the final reckoning.

I’ve no intention of switching again!

The sophistication on board these models is astounding. 
Trouble is…I personally don’t use a fraction of it. They are getting a bit like Photoshop in this way.



I think I am more likely to ditch the lot and use an iPhone:hardhat:

Iain



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Eric wrote:
It was bound to happen once Canon and Sony released their versions.
I doubt there will be much difference in performance with the three big players in the final reckoning.

I’ve no intention of switching again!

The sophistication on board these models is astounding. 
Trouble is…I personally don’t use a fraction of it. They are getting a bit like Photoshop in this way.



I think I am more likely to ditch the lot and use an iPhone:hardhat:
As they say “the best camera is the one you have with you”.

jk



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If they brought out a ZFc that was FF, rather than APS-C then I would be more interested.
The ZFc is very much like a Fuji mirrorless camera.

GeoffR

 

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Iain wrote:
Can’t say it excites me. No weight saving as such. I think if I had the money it would be a D6 for me. Me too. The Z9 is actually 160g HEAVIER than a D4 based on what I have read so far.
Replacing two D4 bodies, 24-70 f2.8 and 70-200 f2.8 with the mirrorless equivalents would increase the weight by 75g. I would also need to buy a new computer to cope with the increased file sizes. Net benefit, for me zero. I can get two used D5 bodies for less than the cost of a single Z9. Somebody please remind me again of the benefits of mirrorless technology.

Last edited on Fri Oct 29th, 2021 17:38 by GeoffR

jk



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WYSIWYG.
Latest technology.
Wallet relief!
Feeling poor!
:devil:
:lol:

GeoffR

 

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Latest technology = a different way of achieving the same result but at a greater profit.

I know I am a cynic but it seems to me that a modern mirrorless camera lets anyone take a picture and get it right first time without the years of experience that would have been required to achieve the same result on film. I suppose it is progress but I am happy with the D4 (OK I am fed up with the vertical joystick cover coming off) there is nothing that the Z6 does that I want and the Z9 is three times the price, essentially for a grip and a bigger battery.

jk



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Eric and Graham you have to watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCpPHjZpEEY

https://youtu.be/GRZxoE28QaU

jk



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This camera is as big a leap forward as the D2X to the D3 or D3S.
I am sorry but the D4, D5, D6 are inch pebbles up from the D3S, but this is a whole 36" paving slab.

This is not a camera for everyone but it is a significant milestone.
It is streets ahead in technology terms compared to any previous Nikon but so it should be.

Until a real use or hands on is available, I will be in awe, but not to the wallet opening extent I have been in the past.
This camera is not for me even though it is smaller (149 x 150 x 91mm) than my D3S (160 x 157 x 88 mm).

We all need to be aware that personal needs and preferences should rule each person's camera choice not what is new or latest.
As GeoffR says the D4 suits him perfectly.  That is great.
If my D3S had a 33MP or 45MP sensor then I would still be using it in preference to the D800 or D850 but 12MP is not great for the work I was doing when you need to crop.
The Z7(ii) is a different beast and I like it but it isnt as great at AF as the Nikon Z9 or the Sony A1 or the Canon R3/5.

I have been through all the testing that I want to do for Canon v Nikon v Sony v Fuji. 
The Sony menus annoy me.
The Canon twirly wheel is a complete PITA.
The Nikon menus and controls work for me.
The Fuji cameras are wonderfully featured but arent as performant as my Z7 or D850 as I would like them to be but I think the XT3 ergonomically is better than any Nikon.
These are my personal preferences and thoughts.
I am sure that Sony and Canon users will love their cameras but they dont suit me.
I am still vacillating with one foot in the Fuji camp and one in the Nikon camp.  I need to make a final choice decision before I move one way or other.


I want something that is a D700 compared to a D3S version of this Z9, or a Zfc but FF.  Maybe the Z8 will be more what I want but does it exist.
I could use the term Zf but as a Df as one already exists and I didnt like how Nikon made the dials, it was just clunky!  The Zfc is a mature version of the Df, but I want FF, not APS-C.  For APS-C the Fuji cameras (XT3 and XH1) suit me better.  There is an XH2 coming out in 2022 and it will be 43MP depending on its AF performance it will be my next camera or the D8

Eric



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jk wrote:
This camera is as big a leap forward as the D2X to the D3 or D3S.
I am sorry but the D4, D5, D6 are inch pebbles up from the D3S, but this is a whole 36" paving slab.

This is not a camera for everyone but it is a significant milestone.
It is streets ahead in technology terms compared to any previous Nikon but so it should be.

Until a real use or hands on is available, I will be in awe, but not to the wallet opening extent I have been in the past.
This camera is not for me even though it is smaller (149 x 150 x 91mm) than my D3S (160 x 157 x 88 mm).

We all need to be aware that personal needs and preferences should rule each person's camera choice not what is new or latest.
As GeoffR says the D4 suits him perfectly.  That is great.
If my D3S had a 33MP or 45MP sensor then I would still be using it in preference to the D800 or D850 but 12MP is not great for the work I was doing when you need to crop.
The Z7(ii) is a different beast and I like it but it isnt as great at AF as the Nikon Z9 or the Sony A1 or the Canon R3/5.

I have been through all the testing that I want to do for Canon v Nikon v Sony v Fuji. 
The Sony menus annoy me.
Have you tried the Sony A1 yet?

Eric



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The mirrorless revolution is all about manufacturers saving money. Of course they stick on new features then spin them into benefits to match some of the things users have said they ‘might’ like.

Lighter bodies
Quieter shutters
Wider/faster tracking focus
Better video performance (viewfinder and focus)
Faster burst rates
Real-time image viewing

I could go on but the the truth is many of these are aimed at specialist photographic applications.

If you have no need for these things, then mirrorless is an expensive distraction.

Last edited on Sat Oct 30th, 2021 22:41 by Eric

jk



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I agree with what you are saying but unfortunately many people are not very analytical and rely on marketing spin to hook them on a product.
I am very resistant to moving from Nikon to any other make and as such the Fuji kit I have I view as an experiment.  If it works and is positive then I will get rid of the Nikon kit but that will be an 'in extremis' moment. 

I love the Nikon menus and button layout it is more understandable than the Fuji stuff which keeps changing between models.

The lenses in the new S line for Z cameras are really very little different to the old F mount system lenses.  Nikon will try and say there is but the optical performance is very similar between equivalent lenses. 
I am very happy to use the FTZ adapter on my Z camera with the F mount lenses that are AFS.

Ultimately if film suits you better then use film, if F mount cameras are best for you then that is not a debate but some insist that the Z range cameras are a must.  I dont agree that Z cameras is the be all, and end all.  I dont intend to get another Z camera unless it is exactly what I need. 
Since my needs change as they have in the last few years I feel that I constantly need to (re)assess my cameras and my needs to see if what I have is what I need.
I could probably move to the Sony system with little pain except with the menus.  The old Sony menus were almost unusable but the new ones are still poor (IMHO) but the current cameras themselves are pretty much perfect in operation.  Unfortunately I am well invested in two alternative systems.


If you look at the photographers in niches then what you say is borne out.  In the past it was just Canon or Nikon and it was used across all scenarios.  Now Sony and others have levered themself into position.
But Nikon still seem to have a bigger share in news photography but Canon seem to have capture the sport and wildlife niches but Sony have managed to get in there and seem to be capturing a lot of video/stills areas from sport, news and reportage.
The market seems more fluid and less entrenched.

jk



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I think this article sums it up.
https://www.dpreview.com/opinion/6960525493/nikon-z9-launch-what-nikon-means-by-a-d3-moment-and-why-they-need-one

"But while Nikon has been knocked down a few times of late, the Z9 shows that it's emphatically not out. And if, for its next trick, Nikon can pull off a D700 moment... well, wouldn't that be something?"

A Z8 which is a Z7 sized body with almost all the features of the Z9 would be a real winner!  
Yes I would pay £3600 for it.

Eric



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When the D3 came out I recall saying that Nikon had released a model destined for a couple of years in the future to try to capture back the market lost to Canon. It was SO much better than anything they or their competitors had to offer it really did feel like a breath of fresh air.

Ever since that time I have always regarded Nikon with a degree of suspicion. They do seem to hold back in reserve something special until they need to use it. It’s a very reactive as opposed to proactive approach which gives the impression of a company sitting on its creative assets rather than getting them out there and really getting back to leading as opposed to following. They will never get back the top spot with this sort of knee jerk me-too marketing.

That said, would I have gone for a Z9 if I was still equipped with Nikon gear?  No. Because, as a Geoff said, a D4,5,6 would be more than acceptable and a lot cheaper, and no heavier it seems.


I’ve very quickly adjusted to Sony Menus. It’s their terminology/language that takes a bit of getting used to.

Having learnt what the body can do….and interpreted Sony’s terminology …..it’s merely a matter of sticking the adjustments for those function YOU intend to use, onto My Menu. The fn buttons strewn around the bodies are eminently configurable to give direct access to any of the operations. 

My cameras would require a complete reset for anyone to try to figure out what does what….nothing to do with Sony menus, just my customisation.😉

Last edited on Mon Nov 1st, 2021 01:45 by Eric

jk



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It was the D700.  A D3 but a small form factor.  I expect exactly the same repeat with the Z8 following the Z9.

D6 is more expensive than Z9.  Manufacturing costs are higher but functionality is less.  

I think that a move to Sony now for me is unlikely, same as now that you and Graham have moved all your kit to Sony I dont think that it is sensible or rational to jump back to Nikon.
These are tools not toys or jewelry!

Personally I find mirrorless to be where I want to be. I always thought liveview on the DSLR was a horrible kludge.
Mirrorless v DSLR is like Digital v Film.  Nostalgia clouds rationaity!

Eric



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jk wrote:
It was the D700.  A D3 but a small form factor.  I expect exactly the same repeat with the Z8 following the Z9.

D6 is more expensive than Z9.  Manufacturing costs are higher but functionality is less.  

I think that a move to Sony now for me is unlikely, same as now that you and Graham have moved all your kit to Sony I dont think that it is sensible or rational to jump back to Nikon.
These are tools not toys or jewelry!

Personally I find mirrorless to be where I want to be. I always thought liveview on the DSLR was a horrible kludge.
Mirrorless v DSLR is like Digital v Film.  Nostalgia clouds rationaity!
Undoubtedly once you move to the ‘right mirrorless camera for your needs’ there is no real incentive to move back to a DSLR. There are few real disadvantages but some useful advantages with mirrorless.

Just on the ‘D3 moment’….

I don’t actually see this as a D3 moment. They haven’t brought out something that wipes the floor with the competition as they did back then. They have merely caught up. 
It remains to be seen how many professional and serious amateurs will be encouraged to make the change from DSLR.

The differences and ‘testing the water’ with mirrorless are likely to be easier to contemplate when the price tag isn’t £6k.

Last edited on Mon Nov 1st, 2021 10:12 by Eric

GeoffR

 

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I really want to like the Z9 but I can't because it doesn't deliver the, heavily plugged, advantages of mirrorless. Sure it benefits from the removal of the mirror in vibration terms but, crucially for me, it isn't any lighter than the D4 bodies I already have. An extra 160g per body is significant and, if I use my current lenses, another 100+g for FTZ II adaptors means I would be carrying an extra 500g. The other advantages just don't do anything for me, though I accept that for others they may be make or break.

What annoys me most however is the attitude of some in the photographic press who are so convinced of the advantages that they fail to see why anyone wouldn't want them. A rational approach would compare like for like, something that hasn't been possible until now because professional mirrorless bodies from Canon and Nikon have only recently become available.

Eric's list of user "wants" is an interesting basis for such a comparison, my comments in Blue.

Lighter bodies: Yes something I would like but the available body doesn't deliver.
Quieter shutters: Not really a problem but if it is there then I won't complain.
Wider/faster tracking focus: I haven't encountered a need for better tracking with the lenses I have. May be I should spend a small proportion of price of a Z9 on a longer lens.
Better video performance (viewfinder and focus): I don't do video.
Faster burst rates: I never use continuous shutter release so it doesn't apply.
Real-time image viewing: I am not sure how much of an advantage that is, I have it on my 1J5 but I have managed without for nearly 50 years


So I have to agree with him that for me, and I suspect many another amateur, mirrorless is a distraction.

chrisbet



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As a rank amateur, I have no need for anything other than my D610 - I have invested in good lenses to go with it, but for the VAST majority of the images and videos I capture, the smartphone is a much more useful tool - image quality on the latest phones is more than good enough with resolutions up to 108 megapixels.

Video is also much easier as you can see the framing easily on the screen as long as you are not in very bright sunlight.

So the Z series, or Sony, Canon or Fuji alternatives have no interest to me and, I suspect, the vast majority of people who take images for pleasure.

jk



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GeoffR wrote:
I really want to like the Z9 but I can't because it doesn't deliver the, heavily plugged, advantages of mirrorless. Sure it benefits from the removal of the mirror in vibration terms but, crucially for me, it isn't any lighter than the D4 bodies I already have. An extra 160g per body is significant and, if I use my current lenses, another 100+g for FTZ II adaptors means I would be carrying an extra 500g. The other advantages just don't do anything for me, though I accept that for others they may be make or break.

What annoys me most however is the attitude of some in the photographic press who are so convinced of the advantages that they fail to see why anyone wouldn't want them. A rational approach would compare like for like, something that hasn't been possible until now because professional mirrorless bodies from Canon and Nikon have only recently become available.

Eric's list of user "wants" is an interesting basis for such a comparison, my comments in Blue.

Lighter bodies: Yes something I would like but the available body doesn't deliver.
Quieter shutters: Not really a problem but if it is there then I won't complain.
Wider/faster tracking focus: I haven't encountered a need for better tracking with the lenses I have. May be I should spend a small proportion of price of a Z9 on a longer lens.
Better video performance (viewfinder and focus): I don't do video.
Faster burst rates: I never use continuous shutter release so it doesn't apply.
Real-time image viewing: I am not sure how much of an advantage that is, I have it on my 1J5 but I have managed without for nearly 50 years


So I have to agree with him that for me, and I suspect many another amateur, mirrorless is a distraction.
Got to say that I agree with all of this as I dont feel the Z9 is for me but I would like a similar specs on a lighter camera with a smaller battery.
I dont do video so video is wasted on me, I seldom do anything more than the occasional CH burst and find it useful but not a must have.

The killer items are smaller so like the Z7, with built in GPS, better Dynamic Range on the sensor and anything between 36-50MP is OK.  More is not good!
Battery if it uses the current Z7 battery then so much the better.

Eric



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chrisbet wrote:
As a rank amateur, I have no need for anything other than my D610 - I have invested in good lenses to go with it, but for the VAST majority of the images and videos I capture, the smartphone is a much more useful tool - image quality on the latest phones is more than good enough with resolutions up to 108 megapixels.

Video is also much easier as you can see the framing easily on the screen as long as you are not in very bright sunlight.

So the Z series, or Sony, Canon or Fuji alternatives have no interest to me and, I suspect, the vast majority of people who take images for pleasure.
My wife has bought a gimbal head for her iPhone. ( she loves doing videos) There’s no doubt it gives rock steady walking video plus the app has some clever tricks. But I can’t see here running up and down the touch line filming soccer at her age so it’s only going to be valuable if she falls over while filming….it will keep subject lock albeit at a lower angle.

I have to laugh (without her seeing me of course) because she now carries more paraphernalia weight to get the iPhone working optimally than she did with her bridge camera. 🤭🤐

Last edited on Tue Nov 2nd, 2021 01:51 by Eric

chrisbet



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Eric wrote:
I have to laugh (without her seeing me of course) because she now carries more paraphernalia weight to get the iPhone working optimally than she did with her bridge camera. 🤭🤐 Lol, but I bet it is still a lot lighter than your kit!

I use the iPad mini to video - it has video stabilisation, the large screen makes composition easy and removes the desire to squint through one eye!

jk



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Get yourself a decent camera with a Passepartout.
Easy solution, he carries, you shoot.
:devil: :lol:

GeoffR

 

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jk wrote:
Battery if it uses the current Z7 battery then so much the better.

The exact opposite applies for me, I have EN-EL18s so a camera that uses those would be ideal.

Eric



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chrisbet wrote:
Lol, but I bet it is still a lot lighter than your kit!

I use the iPad mini to video - it has video stabilisation, the large screen makes composition easy and removes the desire to squint through one eye!
It’s also created a minor revamp on carrying her phone.
Till now, she always carried her phone in her bra. (Wallet in the other side keeping her hands free)

But having a 10” metal handle poking out is apparently unacceptable. So she’s had a rethink and come up with a better solution………..I carry it !!!

She’s keeping the wallet though.

Last edited on Wed Nov 3rd, 2021 00:37 by Eric

jk



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Haha that will stop you going feral with the finances.  Never know what desperate things you might do after the LandRover experience.

These new tech are distraction from the mundane.  Still trying to get a tradesman to sort out a small but annoying leak at my other house.

novicius



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JK: do you still have your house in Spain ?

jk



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Yes I do.
I hope that 2022 and Covid-reduction everywhere will allow me return for a holiday.

novicius



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We can but hope :needsahug:

chrisbet



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I have just got back from Italy - despite the non eu status and covid, the travel was easy in both directions. 10 days of bliss with my hossie!



Click here to comment on this image.

novicius



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I am envious...plane travel is more costly now is n`t it ?

chrisbet



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novicius wrote:
I am envious...plane travel is more costly now is n`t it ? Not at all - return flights to Pisa from Stansted were £77 including in flight meals!

Robert



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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJhQk7M78PE

Stunning!

Maybe a bit slow to start with but the images are amazing, worth seeing it all.

jk



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Very good.  Dont buy his second hand cameras!  Mind you they are probably maintained by Nikon.

novicius



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As JK said..do n`t buy those camera`s...but that video has cinè quality,leaving my D3s in the video dust,it`s a nice looking camera too, unfortunately it does n`t have a mirror , and now I´m wondering what the D6 is like, but not much chance getting that (D6) any time soon.

novicius



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J K : Mirrorless v DSLR is like Digital v Film.  Nostalgia clouds rationaity!

I do not agree,..yet I have no arguments against it,other than that I have always been pro the Mirror solution.

Last edited on Tue Nov 30th, 2021 07:58 by novicius

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Mirrorless V DSLR is nothing like Film V Digital. For a start both mirrorless and DSLR can produce the same result, a file of exactly the same resolution and size captured from the same place with the same lens (all be it with a spacer on the mirrorless body). The nearest equivalent I can come up with is a PAT* box V individual insulation resistance and continuity testers. Both methods will come up with the same result but by slightly different processes. Of course I can override the box and sign the test label anyway if I know the limitations in the same way as I can override settings with a camera.

As I have said before, what will cause the demise of the DSLR will be the lack of batteries, fortunately the Z9 uses the same battery as the D4, D5 and D6.

*PAT  = Portable Appliance Test (for electrical safety).

Last edited on Tue Nov 30th, 2021 11:18 by GeoffR


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