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Posted by jk: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 21:51 51st Post
GeoffR wrote:
I'm rather more interested in the Pro body but, as I have said previously, the EVF will need to be indistinguishable from an optical finder before I part with any money.
Well my Fuji XT2 has 2.36MP EVF and I am happy. The Z7 has 3.6MP so it should be better, but it does depend on the revresh rate as well.



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Posted by GeoffR: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 06:07 52nd Post
Robert wrote: However they may be more robust due to the VR (IS?) being in the body rather than the lens, in theory they should be a little saving because you are only buying one image stabilising unit rather than one for each lens.Robert, I have said this before but it bears repeating. There is no evidence that Nikon has, or will be, dropping in-lens VR. With the possible exception of the 24-70 f4 Nikon don't make a VR version of any of the lenses currently announced.

There isn't a 24-70 f4 in F mount but there is a 24-70 f2.8 VR.

There is a 24-70 f2.8 on the road map, will it have VR? I expect so. I fully expect the 70-200 f2.8 to be a VR lens and I also expect further VR lenses to be introduced later.

Correcting Pitch and Yaw vibration is easier to accomplish with in-lens systems. If I were designing a new camera system and had the option of five axis stabilisation I wouldn't cripple it by removing the Pitch and Yaw elements from future lenses.

 


Posted by Robert: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 08:44 53rd Post
https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/mirrorless-cameras/z-6.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-Overview

Attachment: Screen Shot 2018-08-28 at 09.42.55.jpg (Downloaded 14 times)



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Posted by Robert: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 08:47 54th Post
12 fps

Attachment: Screen Shot 2018-08-28 at 09.46.24.jpg (Downloaded 12 times)



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Posted by jk: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 09:05 55th Post
:lol: 12fps in low light? No....

I find this is something for those who like machine guns rather than rifles! I dont need 50 bullets to kill someone/thing as a person who was trained as a sniper by British Army. I find one bullet is enough or two if really necessary!
Similarly in cameras I tend to use CL only where I want a set of images fast action or HDR. CH is wasted on me. Single frame capture is my preference. I understand CL use in dance and sports and possibly some wildlife images.



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Posted by Robert: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 09:43 56th Post
jk wrote:
:lol: 12fps in low light? No....
Simply posted the info to correct any misunderstandings.

I do use high for two reasons, exposure bracketing and focus bracketing with my 300 f2.8 MF which I lock onto a pre determined point on a race track then rattle off three or four exposures which allows me to choose the optimal shot for that particular picture.

My reactions and eyes are not in the same class as an army trained sharp shooter!!! :bowing:



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Posted by jk: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 12:23 57th Post
Robert wrote:

My reactions and eyes are not in the same class as an army trained sharp shooter!!! :bowing:

Neither are mine these days but my hands are still pretty steady. Nothing lasts forever though.



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Posted by jk: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 12:41 58th Post
I am gradually drifting to a decision that I will get my Z7 with 24-70 f4 and the Z adapter. If it performs well then I will keep but I will be thinning out my Nikon camera and lens inventory and also reduce my Fuji setup by getting rid of the XT1.

I am still fence sitting about getting a second XT2 as the Z7 has removed need and a purchase of a Z6 would certainly negate the need for a second XT2. It really is now all about how the Z7 AF performs and how I get on with it!



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Posted by Eric: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 19:56 59th Post
Well, Amazon are doing their best to encourage me to get a Z model. I ordered a Sony XQD card to try on the D500 while on holiday ......they sent me two! Order and invoice clearly say one. Just waiting to see what credit card says before contacting them. Now wondering if I should order a Z7 from them ...and see if they send me two of those as well. :lol:



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Posted by Robert: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 21:00 60th Post
Had you not considered updating the firmware on the D500 to accept the CF express cards... Not 100% up on the tech, just posting on the hoof from memory, I posted a link about it a while back...

http://nikon-dslr.net/view_topic.php?id=1516&forum_id=5

The Z's are said to be upgradable to take these alternative cards too.



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Posted by jk: Tue Aug 28th, 2018 22:43 61st Post
I want an SD card to XQD slot adapter.
Still not found one. It must be possible to make.
Need to get pinouts for XQD and also SD cards.



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Posted by Robert: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 07:38 62nd Post
Post moved to dedicated thread.

http://nikon-dslr.net/view_post.php?post_id=17639



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Posted by GeoffR: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 08:09 63rd Post
Robert wrote: Had you not considered updating the firmware on the D500 to accept the CF express cards... Not 100% up on the tech, just posting on the hoof from memory, I posted a link about it a while back...

http://nikon-dslr.net/view_topic.php?id=1516&forum_id=5

The Z's are said to be upgradable to take these alternative cards too.
As CFExpress cards aren't available yet I don't think Nikon have released any firmware updates for them.

 


Posted by Robert: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 08:57 64th Post
Good point!

Later this year?

https://www.dpreview.com/news/9327963087/prograde-demonstrates-first-ever-1tb-cfexpress-card-with-1-400mb-s-read-speed

The Brochure for the Z6 states that a firmware upgrade will be available to enable compatibility with the CFexpress cards and elsewhere read that will extend to the other XQD bodies. Just got a bit ahead of reality there!



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Posted by GeoffR: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 09:48 65th Post
Robert wrote: Good point!

Later this year?

https://www.dpreview.com/news/9327963087/prograde-demonstrates-first-ever-1tb-cfexpress-card-with-1-400mb-s-read-speed

The Brochure for the Z6 states that a firmware upgrade will be available to enable compatibility with the CFexpress cards and elsewhere read that will extend to the other XQD bodies. Just got a bit ahead of reality there!
I really hope that is correct because I need more cards, 16GB x2 was fine in the D3 but I effectively have only one slot in the D4. I either buy more 32GB CF cards or wait and buy CFExpress cards once the firmware update is available.

 


Posted by GeoffR: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 09:52 66th Post
I found this interesting too Nikon XQD cards

 


Posted by jk: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 09:57 67th Post
Yes I saw that but I suspect that Sony, Lexar, Delkin XQDs will be more competitively priced. However Nikon may be doing this as a way of using their cards in bundles and rebates.



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Posted by Robert: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 10:48 68th Post
Yes, saw that Geoff, We are currently in an avalanche of information and sifting through it all, sorting the wheat from the chaff is a full time job! I am watching several forums and researching myself too. Exciting times.

This is a bit of a long read but for those with the time it's very interesting.

https://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/e/Q5NM96RZZo-RRZZFeeMiveET0gVQ--AxJI7g-xcLVNVcp7mdwZQz5w==/Misc/Z_Engineer_Interview_Brochure.pdf



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Posted by jk: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 15:45 69th Post
In my D850 I have a 128GB QXD and a 64GB SD. This provides me with 1400 images. Much too many.
I am thinking that I will move the 128GB QXD to the Z7 (900 images) and get a 64GB XQD to put into the D850. So both cameras will have 900 image potential. More than enough, even for a busy day.



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Posted by Robert: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 16:32 70th Post
jk wrote:
In my D850 I have a 128GB QXD and a 64GB SD. This provides me with 1400 images. Much too many.
I am thinking that I will move the 128GB QXD to the Z7 (900 images) and get a 64GB XQD to put into the D850. So both cameras will have 900 image potential. More than enough, even for a busy day.

I tend to be a bit heavy on bracketing since Lightroom made it so easy to process HDR images. Even so, over five nights in Scotland I 'only' took about 2000 images which just about filled a 32Gb card in the D3. From those 2000 exposures I have selected and processed about 55 which I would feel comfortable posting anywhere, or putting in an album. A couple of hundred were time-lapse which I had hoped might have produced some star trails, but didn't due to cloud cover.

With the advances in exposure and focus since the D3 to the D850 and Z6-7 I would anticipate a better keeper ratio. Also I would hope and expect a slower and more methodical approach which should improve the composition and focus of the images. I haven't seen any mention of it but I understand the most electronic viewfinders have a magnify function which allows you to zoom to a pre determined magnification. That would be invaluable to me, especially if the magnified area can be moved with the joystick.

Can anyone confirm the EVF zoom on the Z cameras?



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Posted by jk: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 19:12 71st Post
I dont think there is EVF zoom but TFT replay zoom as is currently present in D850 and other digital cameras.

Fuji cameras offer aa eVF zoom mode for focussing pnly. I dont know if this happens in the Z series cameras.



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Posted by GeoffR: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 19:52 72nd Post
jk wrote: I dont think there is EVF zoom but TFT replay zoom as is currently present in D850 and other digital cameras.

Fuji cameras offer aa eVF zoom mode for focussing pnly. I dont know if this happens in the Z series cameras.
I saw a graphic, can't remember where, that suggests that it is available on the Z series.

 


Posted by Robert: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 20:28 73rd Post
Thanks for the fb, strange, because for me that would be the first thing I would expect from an EVF??? o.O

The fact it isn't mentioned almost anywhere (except very briefly in one of the numerous Z7 you tube videos I have endured in the name of research and those *** didn't know, they were speculating...) makes me wonder. It's such an obvious feature which I would use on almost every image. Just like I did with my Bronica S2a.

If you can't have a waist level finder with loupe, that would be next best thing.

I have tried using live view and by comparison it's rubbish, not only that, the image moves the right way... LOL



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Posted by Eric: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 21:40 74th Post
Do you ever get the feeling we are wishing our lives away, waiting anxiously for the next development fix?

These manufacturers certainly know how to feed our habit.

;-)



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Posted by Robert: Wed Aug 29th, 2018 21:43 75th Post
:lol:

If you think Nikon are bad for that, buy into Apple products!!! :lol:

... Oh but you have! o.O

I think we all have a bad dose of NAS.



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Posted by GeoffR: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 09:23 76th Post
Robert wrote: :lol:

If you think Nikon are bad for that, buy into Apple products!!! :lol:

... Oh but you have! o.O

I think we all have a bad dose of NAS.
Speak for yourself, this Mac is 7 years old, my most recently acquired camera likewise as is my car. I am not an early adopter.

Whilst I may be interested in the Z series cameras I have absolutely no intention of buying one. Why not? Physically too small, the "grip" is, apparently only a battery pack so no second set of controls or shutter button and I'll only switch to an EVF when they are indistinguishable from an optical viewfinder.

Now if the Z series should depress the prices of used D4 and D5 bodies...

 


Posted by Robert: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 09:58 77th Post
GeoffR wrote:
Speak for yourself, this Mac is 7 years old I am not an early adopter
I bought my first Mac, an SE in ~1988, I still have it here in my bedroom, upgraded to SE30, total cost inc. the upgrade, £3,500 + £1,000 for scanner and £2,500 for the LaserPrinter, all early adopter.

Since then I have had innumerable Macs, new and used, large and small, including the 'luggable' Mac portable. I currently have two Mac minis, a Mac Book pro, an old iMac G5 which gives me access to OS 9.1; and my Pride and Joy, bought two years ago, an early 2009 Mac Pro 4.1 which I have hacked the firmware to 5.1 and is running High Sierra via PCIe SSDs.

I have several other Macs 'in the loft'! About eight years ago I had a clear out and completely filled my Volvo estate with unwanted Mac gear to take to the recycling depot.

Not to mention a succession of iPhones and an iPad for which I have yet to find a real use. Although I have had it on surveillance duty using an app called 'cambush' which turns it into a security camera, activated by movement in the field of view. We have some unwanted rodents in the back yard and I am trying to monitor their activities, so perhaps the iPad isn't entirely useless.

So that's my speak on AAS! o.O



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Posted by jk: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 11:07 78th Post
OK I know reviewers vary but.....
Nikon Z6 vs Sony a7 III, which is the better buy? Hint: it's too close to call

So they say the Z6 = A7iii. Too close to call.

Which is better: Nikon Z7 vs Sony a7R III

So the Z7 is the same as the Z6 just more MP? Yes?
And the A7iiiR is the same as the Z7 but has just less 3MP than the Z7? (so it is the same). Yes? Maybe not?

Then re-read the first article.....
So the Z6 is as good as the Sony A7iii.
So the Z7 is as good as the Sony A7iiiR? Maybe? Yes? See their conclusions. Or is the A7iiiR so much better than the A7iii? I cant judge as I cant do a hands on comparison.

So I ask myself "What are all the reviewers fussing about"?
Did they want a Z7 camera that beat every camera on the market out of sight?
Get real! Tools for jobs. Choose your tool correctly.



RANT Time. I really think that ~80% of the human race (or is it just reviewers?) is stupid and lack any facility for critical thinking. A plague upon their camp!



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Posted by GeoffR: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 11:59 79th Post
Robert wrote: GeoffR wrote:
Speak for yourself, this Mac is 7 years old I am not an early adopter
I bought my first Mac, an SE in ~1988, I still have it here in my bedroom, upgraded to SE30, total cost inc. the upgrade, £3,500 + £1,000 for scanner and £2,500 for the LaserPrinter, all early adopter.

Since then I have had innumerable Macs, new and used, large and small, including the 'luggable' Mac portable. I currently have two Mac minis, a Mac Book pro, an old iMac G5 which gives me access to OS 9.1; and my Pride and Joy, bought two years ago, an early 2009 Mac Pro 4.1 which I have hacked the firmware to 5.1 and is running High Sierra via PCIe SSDs.

I have several other Macs 'in the loft'! About eight years ago I had a clear out and completely filled my Volvo estate with unwanted Mac gear to take to the recycling depot.

Not to mention a succession of iPhones and an iPad for which I have yet to find a real use. Although I have had it on surveillance duty using an app called 'cambush' which turns it into a security camera, activated by movement in the field of view. We have some unwanted rodents in the back yard and I am trying to monitor their activities, so perhaps the iPad isn't entirely useless.

So that's my speak on AAS! o.O
And I thought 5 MacBooks an iMac, an iPad Mini and a selection of iPhones not to mention the odd iPod was excessive! Nothing newer than 2014 in the Mac department though, only the iPad Mini is the current model.

 


Posted by GeoffR: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 12:10 80th Post
jk wrote: OK I know reviewers vary but.....
 
Did they want a Z7 camera that beat every camera on the market out of sight?
Essentially, yes I think that is exactly what they wanted, and I dare say Nikon could have done it but they need user feedback and they need to get the cameras in the right hands. What they have is attractive to Nikon users but needs refining.

I wouldn't want a camera without a set or controls and a shutter release for portrait shooting and I doubt I am alone. I suspect there are many software tweaks required to make the camera as adaptable as users would like but all these things can come later once a few thousand of them are in daily use.

Giving away an XQD card with the camera is a nice touch but I wouldn't be surprised if there were pressure to offer an SD card version too. We'll have to wait and see about that. Demand for two card slots will be there too but we already know that means a bigger body.

 


Posted by Robert: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 12:13 81st Post
jk wrote:
OK I know reviewers vary but.....

RANT Time. I really think that ~80% of the human race (or is it just reviewers?) is stupid and lack any facility for critical thinking. A plague upon their camp!

Perhaps a little unfair... I not sure about the percentage, high or low! :lol::lol::lol:


Meant to add...

There is only ONE reviewer who counts, you! I honestly believe you will be pleased but this is only the start, if the Z's match the opposition (who are on umpteenth iteration) at the first attempt then we can only look forward to some very good cameras.



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Posted by jk: Thu Aug 30th, 2018 13:29 82nd Post
GeoffR wrote:
jk wrote: OK I know reviewers vary but.....
 
Did they want a Z7 camera that beat every camera on the market out of sight?
Essentially, yes I think that is exactly what they wanted, and I dare say Nikon could have done it but they need user feedback and they need to get the cameras in the right hands. What they have is attractive to Nikon users but needs refining.

I wouldn't want a camera without a set or controls and a shutter release for portrait shooting and I doubt I am alone. I suspect there are many software tweaks required to make the camera as adaptable as users would like but all these things can come later once a few thousand of them are in daily use.

Giving away an XQD card with the camera is a nice touch but I wouldn't be surprised if there were pressure to offer an SD card version too. We'll have to wait and see about that. Demand for two card slots will be there too but we already know that means a bigger body.

Yes but how unrealistic from the reviewers.
We all know that there are technology limitations and advantages with PhaseDetect/ContrastDetect AF units. The speed of AF acquisition in different and accuracy also.
This article is a good read.
https://www.creative-photographer.com/phase-detection-contrast-detection-autofocus/



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Posted by Eric: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 15:04 83rd Post
Well I am still unconvinced on the value for money and functionality of these cameras based on the majority of reviews I’ve seen so far. They range from polite critique to downright offensive, with the general tenor being..... there is nothing on these cameras that wows, despite all the Nikon 'mirrorless reinvented' hype. Some have suggested it’s little more than a D5000 series camera withthe mirror taken out. And given the price tag that would be extortionate.

Depressingly so, I have even heard it doesn’t focus in AF-C mode very reliably making tracing less than ideal. And one person dared to say there was viewfinder blackout.

So I am not holding my breath on this one.

Last edited on Fri Aug 31st, 2018 15:06 by Eric



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Posted by jk: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 15:49 84th Post
I think that the high price is a reflection of Nikon putting a 45MP sensor in the camera.

If it had been me I would have launched the 24MP Z6 first, ironed out the issues and complaints and released the killer Z7 with everything fixed and at same time launch a DZ7 (professional body like the D6).
In a DZ7 I would expect mirrorless camera with twin cards, two batteries, Z flange, even faster AF.


Yes I do feel uncertain about going to the Z7 but it may be a very good option if it performs correctly. It wont be a D850 but more a XT2 on steroids. That is my expectation. I may be disappointed.



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Posted by GeoffR: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 16:14 85th Post
As I said back in post 76 I have made my decision.

We have no way of knowing whether the review samples had the final firmware or whether there will be changes as a result of the reviews. We won't find out until the production versions hit the dealers in September and October, I don't think this is a camera for the early adopter.

 


Posted by Robert: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 16:28 86th Post
GeoffR wrote:
I don't think this is a camera for the early adopter.
Don't understand? o.O

Anyone who buys this camera WILL be an early adopter, unless they are buying it from old stock, 12 months hence...



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Posted by Eric: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 17:02 87th Post
jk wrote:
I think that the high price is a reflection of Nikon putting a 45MP sensor in the camera.

If it had been me I would have launched the 24MP Z6 first, ironed out the issues and complaints and released the killer Z7 with everything fixed and at same time launch a DZ7 (professional body like the D6).
In a DZ7 I would expect mirrorless camera with twin cards, two batteries, Z flange, even faster AF.


Yes I do feel uncertain about going to the Z7 bgut it may be a very good option if it performs correctly. It wont be a D850 but more a XT2 on steroids. That is my expectation. I may be disappointed.

Although ultimately a professional mirrorless will come along and be adopted by same, I feel it is still some time off.

Although many professionals DO USE mirrorless cameras, it will need something a bit more robust than the current body and lenses to woo the D5/6 brigade.

That said, I no longer take photographs for a living, so wouldn’t need it D5 bombproof. For me it’s the value for money part that irks me. The 45mp D850 is priced near enough to the Z7 to question the advantage of mirrorless

Last edited on Fri Aug 31st, 2018 17:07 by Eric



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Posted by GeoffR: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 17:42 88th Post
Robert wrote: GeoffR wrote:
I don't think this is a camera for the early adopter.
Don't understand? o.O

Anyone who buys this camera WILL be an early adopter, unless they are buying it from old stock, 12 months hence...
That should read "this is not a camera with which to be an early adopter" buying one of the first batch is a gamble, later buyers will benefit from firmware updates out of the box. I would let someone else be the guinea pig.

 


Posted by Robert: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 18:37 89th Post
GeoffR wrote:
Robert wrote: GeoffR wrote:
I don't think this is a camera for the early adopter.
Don't understand? o.O

Anyone who buys this camera WILL be an early adopter, unless they are buying it from old stock, 12 months hence...

That should read "this is not a camera with which to be an early adopter" buying one of the first batch is a gamble, later buyers will benefit from firmware updates out of the box. I would let someone else be the guinea pig.

Ah! I think I said that in my first post (or second!).

Not just the firmware, the hardware too. Totally new mount is bound to have some room for refinement.

It's easy to get carried away by the hype. That said, I still think these cameras will be outstanding. Nikon have made an massive investment, they are committed to making the highest quality product they can produce. Even if it's 'no better' than the D850, that's still a great achievement.

The opposition ie. Sony and Fuji, are several iterations down the track. The paying customer has funded the development, as is to be expected.

The AF will take some sorting because it's a physics thing, trying to do the impossible. Even with todays technology the impossible takes a little longer! LOL



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Posted by GeoffR: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 20:03 90th Post
Robert wrote: GeoffR wrote:
Robert wrote: GeoffR wrote:
I don't think this is a camera for the early adopter.
Don't understand? o.O

Anyone who buys this camera WILL be an early adopter, unless they are buying it from old stock, 12 months hence...

That should read "this is not a camera with which to be an early adopter" buying one of the first batch is a gamble, later buyers will benefit from firmware updates out of the box. I would let someone else be the guinea pig.

Ah! I think I said that in my first post (or second!).

Not just the firmware, the hardware too. Totally new mount is bound to have some room for refinement.

It's easy to get carried away by the hype. That said, I still think these cameras will be outstanding. Nikon have made an massive investment, they are committed to making the highest quality product they can produce. Even if it's 'no better' than the D850, that's still a great achievement.

The opposition i.e. Sony and Fuji, are several iterations down the track. The paying customer has funded the development, as is to be expected.

The AF will take some sorting because it's a physics thing, trying to do the impossible. Even with today's technology the impossible takes a little longer! LOL
Lets ignore Fuji, their sensor is smaller and thus not a direct competitor. What Nikon have done is to produce a camera very close in all respects to the equivalent Sony.(According to the reviews) That it took Sony three goes to get there and Nikon are on their first attempt suggests that the wait was worthwhile. That does mean that the next iteration from Nikon needs to surpass the next Sony and that isn't going to be easy. However, they have to get the firmware of this one right first.

 


Posted by Robert: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 21:08 91st Post
Well I have had little interest in mirrorless, my interest now is academic rather than there being any prospect of my obtaining one.

I don't see Fuji being irrelevant... Both JK and Eric abandoned Nikon DSLRs in favour of Fuji? Sensor size is irrelevant, the final image is the only thing which matters. No matter what camera it comes from.

I hope many people buy into mirrorless so the price of recent DSLRs comes down and allows me to inch further along the path to a really good recent camera.

My D3 is wonderful most of the time but has some limitations. The resolution is wanting for stars, the banding on repeated 30 second exposures is troublesome and the dynamic range is limited compared with say the D810.

A minor irritation to major obstacle, depending on the day... The D3 won't fit on my PB4 bellows without a PK extension tube. Which prevents me from using it for digitising my old slides and negatives. A D810 would fit perfectly.

So, please Nikon, sell lots of the new Z cameras to depress the D810 prices even further than the D850 has. :devil:



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Posted by Eric: Fri Aug 31st, 2018 21:55 92nd Post
Fuji lenses are very good and their years of experience with film means they know a thing or two about colour balance.

So the X cameras produce sharp punchy images despite the smaller sensor.

I got rid of my Nikon equipment partly because it was the remnant of my professional years and partly to get rid of the distraction. It was too easy to pick up the Nikon gear I’d used every day for xxyears rather than persevere with the new Fuji system.

I got rid of the Fuji system not because of image quality but because of limitations in functionality. I also came to the realisation that I don’t need a mirrorless for all situations. It’s only two benefits are less weight and exposure preview.

So until a mirrorless can deliver on the functionality stakes across the board it will never be a camera for all occasions like a DSLR can



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Posted by GeoffR: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 09:44 93rd Post
I ignored Fuji in the same way that someone planning to buy a Renault will ignore Ferrari. Both will get you from A to B but the most definitely aren't the same. Someone looking for a full frame camera isn't going to consider Fuji, or Leica for that matter, unless money is no object.

Hence we need to consider these new Nikons against what potential buyers may also consider. Sony are the obvious starting point but anyone looking at full frame will also look at a Nikon SLR and/or a Canon SLR. The new Z series are, according to at least one review, on a par with the equivalent Sony products, great that is as it should be. The fact that Sony are on their third generation camera and Nikon on their first is irrelevant. Not that the reviewers will agree.

Yes I want them to sell well because I want Nikon to be around for a while longer. I agree with Eric, mirrorless isn't, yet, the maid of all work that the SLR is.

 


Posted by jk: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 10:29 94th Post
You need to look at the rumoured Canon mirrorless.
https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/09/eos-r.html

Great lens range. Makes Nikon effort look very poor.



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Posted by Robert: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 10:36 95th Post
GeoffR wrote:
the maid of all work that the SLR is.
But is it?

It's heavy and somewhat clumsy. We have got used to it for interchangeable lens cameras and accepted the downsides because there were no real alternatives. The mirror slap is a real pain at times. With digital it should be possible to have a fully usable silent shutter and get rid of the primitive mirror.

For wide angle and long lenses single lens reflex viewfinder is pretty well essential, but why should it need a mirror nowadays?

The fewer working parts, the less need making, assembling and carrying about. Also less to go wrong, if it isn't there, it can't go wrong, or need cleaning or adjusting. Simple is good.

The deep mirror box also impedes lens design, a shorter lens flange depth allows better design for the sensor requirements, film was less fussy. More freedom for the lens designer means better image quality and perhaps reduced costs.

Another two pence worth, maybe...



____________________
Robert.

 


Posted by GeoffR: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 11:17 96th Post
Robert wrote: GeoffR wrote:
the maid of all work that the SLR is.
But is it?

It's heavy and somewhat clumsy. We have got used to it for interchangeable lens cameras and accepted the downsides because there were no real alternatives. The mirror slap is a real pain at times. With digital it should be possible to have a fully usable silent shutter and get rid of the primitive mirror.

For wide angle and long lenses single lens reflex viewfinder is pretty well essential, but why should it need a mirror nowadays?

The fewer working parts, the less need making, assembling and carrying about. Also less to go wrong, if it isn't there, it can't go wrong, or need cleaning or adjusting. Simple is good.

The deep mirror box also impedes lens design, a shorter lens flange depth allows better design for the sensor requirements, film was less fussy. More freedom for the lens designer means better image quality and perhaps reduced costs.

Another two pence worth, maybe...Did you deliberately exclude the word "Yet"?There are some areas in which the mirrorless camera isn't the equal of an SLR, will the gap be closed? I wouldn't say never but it may take a while depending on manufacturer priorities. Sony will be wanting to regain/retain their advantage and may well have the technology in development.

As to bulk, any full frame camera fitted with a 24-70 f2.8 is going to be relatively bulky.

 


Posted by GeoffR: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 11:26 97th Post
jk wrote: You need to look at the rumoured Canon mirrorless.
https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/09/eos-r.html

Great lens range. Makes Nikon effort look very poor.
I am surprised that lens range is such an issue, over 100 current Nikon lenses are available and any current Nikon user is unlikely to ditch their current bodies and embrace the Z series immediately. If, as I suspect, Nikon's aim is to appeal to their current user base first they have made the right moves. If the intent is to attract new users immediately then, yes they have probably made a mistake.

If I were Nikon I would want to prevent all those F mount lenses appearing on the second hand market at the same time. Too many used lenses being available could depress sales of new lenses. Also if trade in values are high buying a new camera is easier, financially, we shall see.

 


Posted by Robert: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 11:41 98th Post
GeoffR wrote: Did you deliberately exclude the word "Yet"?
Didn't feel it was needed at this level... ;-)

Don't own and don't intend to own a 24-70 2.8. Not my kind of lens. In the unlikely event I did get a Z I doubt I would get any of the Z lenses. Too clinical. I want to make pictures, not perfect photographs.

105mm f/2.5, 16mm f/2.8 fish and Micro 55mm f/2.8 are my favourites, with a range of others to fill gaps. Zooms are non preferred, but sometimes deployed if the task demands it.

The 24-120 f/4.0 is a capable lens but large and heavy. Clambering 2 miles along the Fairy Pools of the river Brittle on Skye was a bit of an effort but the results were worth it.

Off out, shoppin to do... ;-)



____________________
Robert.

 


Posted by jk: Sat Sep 1st, 2018 14:11 99th Post
More Canon info.
http://thenewcamera.com/canon-eos-r-fullframe-mirrorless-camera-images-and-full-specification/



____________________
Still learning after all these years!
http://www.jmknights.net
https://nikon-dslr.net/gallery_view.php?user=2&folderid=none
 


Posted by amazing50: Sun Sep 2nd, 2018 15:52 100th Post
JK Said "I want an SD card to XQD slot adapter.
Still not found one. It must be possible to make."

There should be few problems since both cards can be read by USB.
Problems may be with licensing etc.
Would like one as a second card for my D850.



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