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Z Series arrives -  Rate Topic 
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Posted by jk: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 06:53 1st Post
The cameras.
https://www.nikon.co.uk/en_GB/products/category_pages/digital_cameras/mirrorless/overview.page

The F lens adapter
https://www.nikon.co.uk/en_GB/product/accessories/mirrorless/mirrorless-adapters/ftz-mount-adapter



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Posted by jk: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 06:55 2nd Post
The first impressions review.
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review



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Posted by jk: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 07:01 3rd Post
Fuller information from Nikon.
https://www.nikon.co.uk/en_GB/product/digital-cameras/mirrorless/professional/nikon-z-7



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Posted by jk: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 09:10 4th Post
Battery is as I expected EN-EL15 battery but a new (b) version of it, EN-EL15b.

Battery life is 300-330 shots.

Cameras will use the XQD cards only.
I think some needs to make an adapter XQD card that allows SD cards to be used as well.
Yes there may be a speed compromise but it allows wider use.


Prices are as expected.
Z7 (45MP) body £3399, Z6 (24MP) body £2099

Z adapter £100
Great price.

Prices Z7/Z6
Camera plus 24-70 f4 zoom +Z adapter     £4099 ,£2799
Camera plus 24-70 f4 zoom       £3999 ,£2699



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Posted by jk: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 09:31 5th Post
This will please Eric.
"an ultra-high-resolution electronic viewfinder with 3.6 million dots and 0.8x magnification, along with a 3.2" 2.1M-dot tilting touchscreen display on the rear of the camera. "



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Posted by GeoffR: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 12:32 6th Post
Having checked the confirmed dimensions I see that it is a bit over twice the size of my 1 J5. That means that it is too small for me, good because I don't have £2,500 to spare to buy one. I will wait and see what the grip does for it when it is available.

I can't say that the 300 shots per battery charge is very impressive either but then I have been using the EN-EL4 series batteries for many years and that colours my view. I want the Z series to be a success and I think it has all the features and qualities required. As Michael Topham of Amateur Photographer points out "will they be able to build them fast enough"?

 


Posted by Iain: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 15:22 7th Post
But they have done it again, one card slot. :whip:

 


Posted by jk: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 15:45 8th Post
Iain wrote:
But they have done it again, one card slot. :whip:
Why do you need two slots?

But in Z7/6 the slot is XQD and the latest specification allows for 4TB XQD cards I believe. I have 64GB XQD and SD cards in my D850, that is > 1400 shots of RAW.
I really dont see the need for dual slots. I think it is driven by a paranoia in wedding photographers about failure of cards. I have had one SD, CF or XQD fail and it was after a format not in live use. All electronics can fail.



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Posted by GeoffR: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 16:16 9th Post
jk wrote: Iain wrote:
But they have done it again, one card slot. :whip:
Why do you need two slots?

But in Z7/6 the slot is XQD and the latest specification allows for 4TB XQD cards I believe. I have 64GB XQD and SD cards in my D850, that is > 1400 shots of RAW.
I really dont see the need for dual slots. I think it is driven by a paranoia in wedding photographers about failure of cards. I have had one SD, CF or XQD fail and it was after a format not in live use. All electronics can fail.
There really is no difference between having one card slot and only being able to load one roll of film. That said, two slots would be better.

So could we take this as an indication that these cameras are not the top of the range professional bodies but equivalents to the D850 and D750? I would like to think that there is a top of the range Pro body awaiting the results of the Z6 and Z7 launch. Possibly a bigger body with integral grip using the EN-EL18c battery, a bigger buffer and even faster frame rate.

 


Posted by Eric: Thu Aug 23rd, 2018 17:49 10th Post
jk wrote:
This will please Eric.
"an ultra-high-resolution electronic viewfinder with 3.6 million dots and 0.8x magnification, along with a 3.2" 2.1M-dot tilting touchscreen display on the rear of the camera. "

Sadly the wholesale commitment to XQD is the deal breaker for me.

Until these cards are sensibly priced and enable the direct transfer of photo files to my iPad Pro, I must stay with SD card cameras.



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Posted by jk: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 10:16 11th Post
There is an adapter that allow XQD to iPad download. I saw the reader yesterday when searching for other information.
I am surprised that XQD has been chosen as card as I think it limits market but I am told that XQD will be as ubiquitous as SD!

I have searched for a SD card to XQD adpater but apparently it doesnt exist. Well I contacted a large USA company and asked the question. I think it is just a matter of time as it is always possible to build an adapter.



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Posted by jk: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 10:17 12th Post
Z7/Z6 brochure is available for download here.
https://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/e/Q5NM96RZZo-RRZZFeeMiveET0gVQ--AxJI7g-xcLVNVcp7mdwZQz5w==/Misc/Z7_Z6_Brochure.pdf



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Posted by jk: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 10:22 13th Post
GeoffR wrote:
jk wrote: Iain wrote:
But they have done it again, one card slot. :whip:
Why do you need two slots?

But in Z7/6 the slot is XQD and the latest specification allows for 4TB XQD cards I believe. I have 64GB XQD and SD cards in my D850, that is > 1400 shots of RAW.
I really dont see the need for dual slots. I think it is driven by a paranoia in wedding photographers about failure of cards. I have had one SD, CF or XQD fail and it was after a format not in live use. All electronics can fail.
There really is no difference between having one card slot and only being able to load one roll of film. That said, two slots would be better.

So could we take this as an indication that these cameras are not the top of the range professional bodies but equivalents to the D850 and D750? I would like to think that there is a top of the range Pro body awaiting the results of the Z6 and Z7 launch. Possibly a bigger body with integral grip using the EN-EL18c battery, a bigger buffer and even faster frame rate.

I agree that once the technology and concept is proven and refined then a DZ6 might be the logical next step. This would be the first mirrorless camera with D series body but dont know how this is approached from a marketing perspective as it may fragment professional camera sales.
If the EN-EL15b can only deliver 330 shots then a DZ series camera with a bigger battery is required for photo journalists as 1000+ shots per charge is more desirable.
BTW a battery grip is promised for the Z7/Z6. ;-)



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Posted by Eric: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 12:51 14th Post
jk wrote:
There is an adapter that allow XQD to iPad download. I saw the reader yesterday when searching for other information.
I am surprised that XQD has been chosen as card as I think it limits market but I am told that XQD will be as ubiquitous as SD!

I have searched for a SD card to XQD adpater but apparently it doesnt exist. Well I contacted a large USA company and asked the question. I think it is just a matter of time as it is always possible to build an adapter.

I will believe the ubiquitous claim when the prices start to fall.;-)

I suppose I could use WiFi to transfer....or go via the desktop?

The problem is ...emptying the card in the field..no I would not multi buy at current prices.

My WD external hard drive has a simple SD slot. If I want to continue to use it I will need to take more paraphernalia with me.

Need to consider changing workflow ...as well as the cameras performance/feel.



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Posted by Graham Whistler: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 13:39 15th Post
Only 9FPS? I thought the big plus with mirrorless cameras is very fast FPS the D850 does 9FPS. I do think it is good that the new mount with suitsable adaptor will let us use present range of AF-S lenses. I will have a look at one out of interest.
No change for me at moment am very happy with what I have.



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Posted by jk: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 18:02 16th Post
I think we need to be cautious with adoption of the z series as it is the 'second' generation of Nikon mirrorless but in truth is the first really serious mirrorless camera by them.

The speed and accuracy of AF in stills and video mode will determine success/failure.



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Posted by Eric: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 18:39 17th Post
jk wrote:
I think we need to be cautious with adoption of the z series as it is the 'second' generation of Nikon mirrorless but in truth is the first really serious mirrorless camera by them.

The speed and accuracy of AF in stills and video mode will determine success/failure.

Cautious? You Jonathan? I am surprised you haven’t got both on order already?:lol:

The 9fps does sound disappointing compared to the Sony Alphas 20fps.
:thumbsdown:

Last edited on Fri Aug 24th, 2018 18:40 by Eric



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Posted by Robert: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 19:04 18th Post
Think you will find the fps is well more than 9fps , depends on the bit depth, it is reported the the battery use is far higher than 300 exposures per charge, like iro 1000 albeit with JPEGs.

Both bodies are essentially identical except for the sensor resolution, making the Z6 very good value.

Reports are of a completely flicker free viewfinder except perhaps in some artificial lighting.

The 5 axis sensor is the image stabilisation medium. I understand that changes to 3 axis for non z mount lenses but it still means any Nikkor including the oldest pre AI lenses will have the advantage of image stabilisation. There is provision to input the lens data for lenses without a CPU chip.

The Wi-Fi can connect directly to a computer or perhaps iPad and also to a router to transmit image files across a network or the internet. Mind you, we have heard this before... Snapbridge anybody?



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Posted by GeoffR: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 20:20 19th Post
Robert wrote: The 5 axis sensor is the image stabilisation medium. I understand that changes to 3 axis for non z mount lenses but it still means any Nikkor including the oldest pre AI lenses will have the advantage of image stabilisation. There is provision to input the lens data for lenses without a CPU chip.I think you will find that it is 5 axis for VR lenses and 3 axis for non-VR, There are currently no VR Z mount lenses.

 


Posted by Iain: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 20:23 20th Post
jk wrote:
Iain wrote:
But they have done it again, one card slot. :whip:
Why do you need two slots?

But in Z7/6 the slot is XQD and the latest specification allows for 4TB XQD cards I believe. I have 64GB XQD and SD cards in my D850, that is > 1400 shots of RAW.
I really dont see the need for dual slots. I think it is driven by a paranoia in wedding photographers about failure of cards. I have had one SD, CF or XQD fail and it was after a format not in live use. All electronics can fail.

If you are doing paid work the two card slots are a insurance policy. All the pros I know all work with cameras with two card slots.

 


Posted by jk: Fri Aug 24th, 2018 21:14 21st Post
All my latest cameras have two slots but I would never use them as a paired set with backup from one to another. That is my personal preference. That said I have used the second slot as a me hanism to backup an SD card to the other at the end of a holiday so everything was on one card for easy downloading!

I guess my risk management is different to some. I have >£70K of camera kit none of it is insured. Why... CBA says it is not a valid proposition. Last camera damage claim was in approx 1980 and value was £680. So 38 years at annual premium of £1K= £38K. So every alternate year I need to lose my D3S or D850 or Z7 to make having insurance worthwhile. I self insure so if I lose or damage it I pay for it! Pays to be careful.

I guess if you are doing weddings or paid commissioned work you may want to either have liability insure or a good contract of hire that excludes loss of pictures due to accident, etc.



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Posted by Robert: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 07:11 22nd Post
Iain wrote:
If you are doing paid work the two card slots are a insurance policy. All the pros I know all work with cameras with two card slots.
Not convinced. As I see it all the pro's you work with have proper cameras which happen to have two slots, dating from when cards were smaller and less reliable than they are today.

I bet most pros also cary multiple cameras, much better insurance. Have seen this point made many times and there are many sides to the discussion. It won't stop a card going bad and can cause the second card to write the same corrupted file if used as backup, anything can fail. How often do users fail to turn off the camera before changing lenses or swapping cards? Can and does happen.

How many cars have spare wheels today? Of those which do, the spare is generally unused... I can remember when having a puncture was a regular occurrence, back in the 50's and 60's, I haven't had to change a wheel at the roadside since about 15 years ago and I remember the spare was flat! I scoured around and borrowed one from a stranger!

I use my D3 second slot as overflow, I have spent five nights on Isle of Skye, taken ~2,000 NEF exposures, still didn't fill the first 32Gb card.

Just an excuse to save 3 or 4 grand and avoid learning a new camera; abandoning the beloved, trusted DSLR will be a huge wrench for the pro brigade as it won't for now, completely replace the DSLR. My guess is the Z range will be largely taken up by serious enthusiasts and those willing to put their elbow in the potentially hot water. In time I think the Z range will prevail, it's called evolution. o.O

More of a concern is that this is the first iteration of a very new camera, second iteration may well trump it. Buying now is akin to becoming a Nikon guinea pig. There will very likely be some issues with the new design which hopefully will be refined out over time...

Nikon pre production testing is done by trusted, highly experienced photographers, who care, the production cameras will be used by people with a wider range of abilities...



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Posted by jk: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 09:38 23rd Post
Interesting.
https://www.dpreview.com/news/1654168429/nikon-announces-64gb-and-120gb-xqd-memory-cards



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Posted by Graham Whistler: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 09:41 24th Post
Robert I agree with a lot of what you have just said. I see no point in keep changing cameras. From time to time I go back and reprint some of my old D1X and D2X pixs and quality is still very good and to be honest hard to see on an A3 print that todays D500s and D850s produce much better images?
By the way did you get the the Ravenglass DVD you helped us make in July? Are you pleased with the result?



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Posted by jk: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 09:43 25th Post
Agree with Robert.
The professional PJs working with digital will stick with D4 or D5 and go for the next iteration so a DZ6 which will have all the wrinkles ironed out.

I hate to say it as I have invested in SD cards in a big way but XQD is the way to go as it is faster and more robust.



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Posted by GeoffR: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 10:01 26th Post
Iain wrote: jk wrote:
Iain wrote:
But they have done it again, one card slot. :whip:
Why do you need two slots?

But in Z7/6 the slot is XQD and the latest specification allows for 4TB XQD cards I believe. I have 64GB XQD and SD cards in my D850, that is > 1400 shots of RAW.
I really dont see the need for dual slots. I think it is driven by a paranoia in wedding photographers about failure of cards. I have had one SD, CF or XQD fail and it was after a format not in live use. All electronics can fail.

If you are doing paid work the two card slots are a insurance policy. All the pros I know all work with cameras with two card slots.
A mere 20 years ago they wouldn't have had that option and undeveloped film is a lot less robust than is a memory card. Not that it isn't advantageous to have two card slots but for more than 100 years there was no equivalent option.

In any case, I see these two as the equivalent of the D750 and D850 rather than equating to a mirrorless D5.

 


Posted by Robert: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 14:38 27th Post
Graham Whistler wrote:
By the way did you get the the Ravenglass DVD you helped us make in July? Are you pleased with the result?
Hi Graham, Yes, very sorry, have kept meaning to thank you, it arrived safely, very impressive!

I have way too many distractions at the moment! Christopher was supposed to be going to Turkey for two weeks but instead is staying on with me for the entire summer holiday, just to keep on my toes...



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Posted by TomOC: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 19:12 28th Post
wow...xqd...fail

why in the world do they see the need for this? I still go by the rule of no need for larger cards than the life of your battery.

I said many times that I would give my left arm for a large sensor camera that would fit in my pocket. When the Leica x1 was introduced, I fell in love with it's ability but not it's features...when the first fuji x100 came to be I really fell in love!

The "rangefinder" form factor of Fuji and some Sony mirrorless are just great. The fuji and Sony "mini SLR" bodies are lost on me. If I want a DSLR, I would use my Nikons...if I want to use a lens that is long enough to require a tripod, I'll use my Nikons (what difference does it make that they are heavy since I'm already lugging the tripod).

Then there is the XQD...really? SD cards are the standard...why would Nikon (again) buck this trend...is this another Sony Memory stick...yes! I already have too many adapters and cables...NO MORE....

I always thought I would be a single brand guy..Fuji turned me into a dual brand guy... I'll stay that way :-)

tom



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Posted by jk: Sat Aug 25th, 2018 22:29 29th Post
Tom, I am with you on the need for XQD. It is the latest memory standard so Nikon feel the need to move that way as it is already in the D5, D850, D500. Personally I think it does give technical write speed headroom but this really is only valuable to video buffs. If you want video get a video camera is my mantra!

So yes please can someone develop an XQD adapter that takes SD cards.
I will take a couple or maybe five.



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Posted by jk: Sun Aug 26th, 2018 11:38 30th Post
I have been looking at the Z mirrorless lens roadmap.

Attachment: Nikon-Z-mirrorless-roadmap.jpg (Downloaded 22 times)



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Posted by jk: Sun Aug 26th, 2018 11:43 31st Post
The more I look at it then the more I wonder if I am doing the right thing buying a Z lens immediately.
The 24-70 f4 will give me a native Z lens to use but my preference will be for the lenses that come in 2019.
I think maybe I need to use the camera and get used to it. 
Then in early 2019 getting rid of all my old Nikon glass except a few key lenses and invest instead in the new Z lenses.
14-30mm f4
85mm f1.4
24-70mm f2.8 - NOTE f2.8 not f4.
70-200mm f2.8

Obviously this strategy would force me to have Z lenses only and would stop any use of the D850 which I really like so I would either need to duplicate lenses in the F range.Or only buy say the 14-30mm f4 and continue to use my F range glass with the Z7 camera.



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Posted by Robert: Sun Aug 26th, 2018 12:25 32nd Post
The longer lenses won't be available in Z mount for some years, The 500PF has been announced and seems to be a good spec.

I think Nikon are concentrating on the core, short to medium lenses for good reason... The sensor will be optimised for the new and apparently very complex designs of the Z mount lenses, to get the full 5 stop benefit from the sensor IS the Z mount lenses are required.

Until Birna and others get their hands on production models we won't know how well the sensor optimisation for the Z mount works with F mount lenses. It could be that some work well, others less well.

Many are relishing the prospect of using old, classic lenses with the IS but what they might gain with the IS and zoom viewfinder they may well loose in outright lack of IQ due to the optimisation of the sensor.

I wouldn't make too many plans about the choice of F or Z lenses for now, although It would probably make sense to get at least one Z mount prime to see how it compares in real world use with the F on the D850, effectively the same sensor.



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Posted by jk: Sun Aug 26th, 2018 16:19 33rd Post
These two are really unbiased (well as unbaised as any average non-fanboy reviewer).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=438&v=iUii9dTwPkw

Not a great review but they were using a pre-production model.



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Posted by jk: Sun Aug 26th, 2018 22:26 34th Post
A slightly different perspective (more positive) on the cameras.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWGIm0RdswA



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Posted by Robert: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 06:53 35th Post
And another, somewhat more objective... and longer, 23mins?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNHQUGgZAKE

Clears up the uncertainty about fps, stating 12fps for the Z6, arguably making the Z6 even better value for anybody not needing the 45 mega pixel files or the hefty price tag.

The sensor based IS sounds good for legacy lenses, adding roll the the normal two axis VR. Still think this will vary from lens to lens, as I said before, awaiting real world testing on actual classic lenses to draw solid conclusions as to the viability of mixing the latest, greatest camera with the great old lenses.

Interesting remark that the VR works better if your hands are (like mine) somewhat shaky...



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Posted by Eric: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 08:41 36th Post
Robert wrote:
And another, somewhat more objective... and longer, 23mins?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNHQUGgZAKE

Clears up the uncertainty about fps, stating 12fps for the Z6, arguably making the Z6 even better value for anybody not needing the 45 mega pixel files or the hefty price tag.

The sensor based IS sounds good for legacy lenses, adding roll the the normal two axis VR. Still think this will vary from lens to lens, as I said before, awaiting real world testing on actual classic lenses to draw solid conclusions as to the viability of mixing the latest, greatest camera with the great old lenses.

Interesting remark that the VR works better if your hands are (like mine) somewhat shaky...


Did you also notice the lens used on the video of the ducks? Seems like he also has the new 500mm on test.

Attachment: 6F33678A-9285-4044-9EAF-4183E3E30F62.jpeg (Downloaded 16 times)



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Posted by jk: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 09:27 37th Post
Currently in debate mde with myself about the value of the Z7 to me.
The D850 is excellent and works great but is heavy and big. The Fuji XT2 works well but the sensor is smaller and lower MP. There is no doubt in my mind that the D850 gives more than any other camera that is not MF.

So will Z7 give the same when it is loaded with firmware that is not beta or pre-production?

Like I have always said these are tools not toys!
That doesnt mean I dont like new toys. ;-)



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Posted by GeoffR: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 10:33 38th Post
jk wrote: So will Z7 give the same when it is loaded with firmware that is not beta or pre-production?
This link, Nikon Rumours, suggests that Nikon see the Z6 and Z7 as equivalent to the D750 and D850. It would certainly not be a good idea for Nikon to make the Z series inferior to the SLRs so I think it safe to assume that the intention is that the Z7 will at least equal the D850 in performance terms.

 


Posted by jk: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 10:41 39th Post
GeoffR wrote:
jk wrote: So will Z7 give the same when it is loaded with firmware that is not beta or pre-production?
This link, Nikon Rumours, suggests that Nikon see the Z6 and Z7 as equivalent to the D750 and D850. It would certainly not be a good idea for Nikon to make the Z series inferior to the SLRs so I think it safe to assume that the intention is that the Z7 will at least equal the D850 in performance terms.

I certainly hope you are right Geoff as I dont want to be lumbered with a Z7 that is a £4k piece of jewellery. I need a camera that is as good as the D600 at least but preferably as good D800/D850 in terms of AF speed and quality.
Some of the reports are people who havent 'used' mirrorless in serious work but I would say that my Fuji XT2 is as good as my D600.

If the Z7 is equal to or better than my XT2 then I am happy but if it is like my XT1 then it will go back as not fit for purpose!



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Posted by GeoffR: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 11:00 40th Post
jk wrote: GeoffR wrote:
jk wrote: So will Z7 give the same when it is loaded with firmware that is not beta or pre-production?
This link, Nikon Rumours, suggests that Nikon see the Z6 and Z7 as equivalent to the D750 and D850. It would certainly not be a good idea for Nikon to make the Z series inferior to the SLRs so I think it safe to assume that the intention is that the Z7 will at least equal the D850 in performance terms.

I certainly hope you are right Geoff as I dont want to be lumbered with a Z7 that is a £4k piece of jewellery. I need a camera that is as good as the D600 at least but preferably as good D800/D850 in terms of AF speed and quality.
Some of the reports are people who havent 'used' mirrorless in serious work but I would say that my Fuji XT2 is as good as my D600.

If the Z7 is equal to or better than my XT2 then I am happy but if it is like my XT1 then it will go back as not fit for purpose!
I'm rather more interested in the Pro body but, as I have said previously, the EVF will need to be indistinguishable from an optical finder before I part with any money.

 


Posted by Robert: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 14:22 41st Post
I would definitely be waiting until the production versions are out in the wild and real experts like Birna can get to grips with the actual cameras in a real world environment.

These self appointed 'experts' have very limited credentials and little real background experience, they just want to ponce about on Utube and they think every body considers them to be god because they have held a pre production Z body.

Despite the announcement, we can't really assess the new cameras properly yet. OK, we have the specs. but Nikon have a poor track record with stuff like software and Wi-Fi etc. I understand colour control points have been re-introduced in Nikon Capture software. so maybe they are learning...



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Posted by GeoffR: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 16:00 42nd Post
Robert wrote:  I understand colour control points have been re-introduced in Nikon Capture software. so maybe they are learning...That would be good

 


Posted by Eric: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 17:26 43rd Post
Robert wrote:
I would definitely be waiting until the production versions are out in the wild and real experts like Birna can get to grips with the actual cameras in a real world environment.

These self appointed 'experts' have very limited credentials and little real background experience, they just want to ponce about on Utube and they think every body considers them to be god because they have held a pre production Z body.

.

I think that’s a little unfair, Robert.

Whilst there are some people just in it for self aggrandisement there must be some who give the product a good honest shakedown?

And anyway, I don’t need an expert detail analysis...I just need it to meet my requirements, which are fairly simplistic....

1) Does this body feel right in the hand?
2) Does the viewfinder clear fast enough to maintain continuous eye contact with the subject, without NEEDING extra batteries and AFC?
3) Does the sensor deliver sharp images with low noise even at (sensible) high ISO level comparable with equivalent DSLRs?
4) Is the opening lens range good enough quality to avoid having to use existing lenses.... which would counter the lower weight advantage.

I have conceded that the battery on a mirrorless will never approach a DSLR image capacity. The ability to use my collection of existing Nikon batteries and a single charger would have to suffice.



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Posted by jk: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 18:00 44th Post
I dont care how many people say it is no good. If if works for me then it works. It is a tool as I keep saying.
I agree with all that Eric says about criteria for purchase.
Also same criteria for the battery.


If the D3 that I sold to Robert was 24MP then I would still have it.

The D3X is 24MP, the D4 is 16MP, D5 is 21MP. The D6 will be ???MP but IMHO needs to be 36MP. The D3X is like hens teeth.



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Posted by Robert: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 19:07 45th Post
Eric wrote:
I think that’s a little unfair, Robert.
You are probably right Eric but I had just sat through four YouTube videos and that WAS the overbearing impression I was left with. I was just expressing my frustration at what I saw as unfair, dismissive reviews.

o.O

These two cameras are aimed at enthusiasts and serious users, not pro's, their turn will probably come with the second iteration, which I understand is already in the pipeline and is said to include the large D5 type battery and dual card slots.

Surely it makes sense for Nikon to release a product like this to a critical and competent user base to iron out wrinkles and snags before finalising a higher end product aimed at the true professional user.

Interestingly the 'roadmap' doesn't include future bodies, I suspect Nikon have released these to test the water to see what happens, future development may be steered to some degree by feedback from X6 and Z7 owners. I hear the Olympics in two years time are at Tokyo? Maybe another long PF in Zmount as well?



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Posted by Robert: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 19:27 46th Post
Eric wrote:

4) Is the opening lens range good enough quality to avoid having to use existing lenses.... which would counter the lower weight advantage.

From what I can gather, the Z mount lenses are tending to be heavier than equivalent F mount lenses. They are larger, with more elements but Nikon's selling point is they claim to have maximum sharpness at widest aperture.

However they may be more robust due to the VR (IS?) being in the body rather than the lens, in theory they should be a little saving because you are only buying one image stabilising unit rather than one for each lens.



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Posted by Eric: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 19:55 47th Post
Robert wrote:
Eric wrote:
I think that’s a little unfair, Robert.
You are probably right Eric but I had just sat through four YouTube videos and that WAS the overbearing impression I was left with. I was just expressing my frustration at what I saw as unfair, dismissive reviews.

o.O

These two cameras are aimed at enthusiasts and serious users, not pro's, their turn will probably come with the second iteration, which I understand is already in the pipeline and is said to include the large D5 type battery and dual card slots.

Surely it makes sense for Nikon to release a product like this to a critical and competent user base to iron out wrinkles and snags before finalising a higher end product aimed at the true professional user.

Interestingly the 'roadmap' doesn't include future bodies, I suspect Nikon have released these to test the water to see what happens, future development may be steered to some degree by feedback from X6 and Z7 owners. I hear the Olympics in two years time are at Tokyo? Maybe another long PF in Zmount as well?

4 videos? No wonder you are jaundiced. :lol:

The one you posted, I found quite good. It told me a number of things I needed to know.

I am not sure you are right (sorry) about the positioning of this body. The bodies are weatherproof like the D850...not many enthusiasts choose to go out in the pouring rain....except in Cumbria.:lol:

I don’t believe the camera industry is flirting with light weight mirrorless systems purely for the benefit of amateurs.

Just like the transition from film to digital that took several years to get pros fully on board, there is another evolution in progress that will mean pros eventually accepting mirrorless as the norm.

How long that will take remains to be seen but I suspect 2 weather proof, full frame bodies with an adapter to existing lenses is a dam good 'wedge in the door'.

I seriously think we are at the D1X stage ...again



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Posted by Robert: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 20:17 48th Post
Eric wrote:
I seriously think we are at the D1X stage ...again
If you don't go out in the rain in Cumbria you just don't go out! I have scarcely been out of the house since we returned from Scotland:lol:

In some ways I agree, D1X days again but we are much further down the path than we were back then... Just about every camera now made surpasses film for IQ, not to mention all the other advantages digital brings.

How much better does IQ need to get?



____________________
Robert.

 


Posted by jk: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 21:03 49th Post
Compared to my D1 the D1X was a heap better.
If the Z7 has as good AF performance as the D1X or D2X then I am happy, if it is as good as D3 then extactic!

The D1X battery was a dog hence my manufacture of the Lion battery way back when.
I was unhappy with the Fuji battery so I looked for external battery pack that was similar to the one I made for the D1 and D2 series. Low and behold that also works for my Fuji XT2 and XT1.



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Posted by Eric: Mon Aug 27th, 2018 21:44 50th Post
Robert wrote:
Eric wrote:
I seriously think we are at the D1X stage ...again
If you don't go out in the rain in Cumbria you just don't go out! I have scarcely been out of the house since we returned from Scotland:lol:

In some ways I agree, D1X days again but we are much further down the path than we were back then... Just about every camera now made surpasses film for IQ, not to mention all the other advantages digital brings.

How much better does IQ need to get?

I don’t think it’s purely about IQ any more.

That’s why I said the mirrorless should be 'comparable' to current DSLRs....it doesn’t need to be better.

The DSLR v 35mm film battle was won with the D3. Since then Nikon has been attempting to overturn medium format. First the D3X then the 800 cameras.

The main advantage of these high pixel sensors for me, is the possibility of sectional enlargement. And that raises another question....

At what point will the croppability of an FX sensor be so good that a DX censor is obsolete....just like film became?

Mirrorless is really all about reducing the manufacturer's costs. And as such it WILL be the future.

The only issue is milking the market, sorry, managing the transition. ;-)

It was 8years from D1 to D3. Nikon started their mirrorless programme in 2011. I think we are about due another milestone .....mirrorless taking over from DSLR.

I am willing to speculate it will be the end of DX and DSLR bodies in the next 5 years. As soon as the Zbodies outperform the D* bodies .....pros will adopt mirrorless.

o.O

Last edited on Mon Aug 27th, 2018 21:56 by Eric



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